Phil Cole 0:04
Hello, and welcome to KLAS solutions dental education Podcast, the podcast series where we share knowledge and experience to provide you value to you and your dental practice. And I'm your host, Phil Cole. And today's episode, we're going to be talking about real estate when it comes to a dental transition. And today, I am with Chris Webb. He is a practice transition and a real estate broker, our principal real estate broker here at class solutions. And so we just wanted to go over a few different things when it comes to when when we're dealing with practice transitions, and when we're also dealing with the real estate at the same time. So welcome, Chris, to our podcast.
Chris Webb 0:53
Yeah, thanks, Phil. I'm excited to be able to talk about this and real estate's not real estate's not exciting for a lot of people, but it is for me, so I'm happy, we're talking about it.
Phil Cole 1:02
A little bit different since you're normally the co host. So you're actually now in the hot seat. So a little bit different here. But when dealing with the, we know that when we're dealing with practice transitions, the transition of the practice has to happen first at all times. And the real estate has to come second, because the real estate is is more or less what I always call kind of the non-emotional side of things. And we know that with practice transitions, you really got to deal with a lot of of emotion, you have to deal with the philosophy of what type of dentists and stuff, the building itself doesn't bring any of that to play in general. So, but yet the real estate also is a component to the buyer, because sometimes the buyer doesn't want the real estate, they want to lease it. Other times they do want the real estate, but how does that it still will play a factor in that transition. So I think one of the big things is, first of all, is why should doctors hire someone to help with with a real estate transition deal? Because a lot of times we get this, oh, I'll just have my lawyer write it up. Or, you know, I have once again, a friend that does it, or I'll do it on my own. It's just real estate, it's not that big of a deal. Why is it important?
Chris Webb 2:35
Yeah. So, you know, you hit on one really big thing. When you were talking about like in a practice transition, you have so much emotion involved in the practice, right? And that's why they're so highly weighted with goodwill, where in the real estate, there's just there's not that goodwill, it's a building, it's tangible assets, like it is what it is, right? So, you know, the thing that I heard when I started, like when I joined with you, at KLAS and we started working together, the thing that a lot of lot of other practice transition companies practice brokers would say is, well, we'll worry about the practice, and the real estate will just follow, which in a sense is true, because you're right, the practice has to be first, right, that's, that's got the goodwill, that's where the businesses, that's where the income is coming from. But the real estate is a key cog in that wheel. So if you think about it, it's going to be one of your larger expenses. Right. And so it's also there's a ton of work that goes into it into your real estate, whether you're setting up a lease, or you're selling it. And one of the things that I see that I try to help walk doctors through is you'll see a lot of transition brokers or attorneys that will say, Hey, here's what we'll do for the real estate, you don't have to worry about hiring somebody to come in and help you find the market value or walk you through it, what you're going to do is sell or you're gonna go hire and you're gonna go hire an appraiser, and get an appraisal buyer, you're gonna go hire an appraiser and get an appraisal, and then you guys are going to meet and figure out where you want to pick the price. Then when the buyer gets the gets the bank going, the buyer is going to pay for a second appraisal, which really is the third appraisal on the building. And that's the one that the bank is going to use because the bank can't use an appraisal it didn't order, right. It's part of the new, those new laws that were established in 2008 after the big crash. So you can't use those third party appraisals in the valuation other than just coming to an agreement. Promise, an appraiser is going to favor whoever they've been hired by. Right. So the sellers appraiser is going to come in pretty high. The buyers appraiser is going to come in pretty low Now you've, you've forced yourself into this contentious situation where now you to have to negotiate and figure out, figure out where you're going to be and where you're going to land, and how comfortable you're going to be. Because once once a seller sees a high number, and a buyer sees a low number, that's in their mind, that's what they want. Right? That's normal. That's normal, negotiating. That's normal. People, you know, habits, if you ever pay attention to negotiation, books or training, like, once that number is established, that's what you want. So if I'm selling you a building, and you know, and I get an appraiser, and he says, oh, yeah, Chris, you can sell this building, the value is 500,000. And you hire an appraiser, and an appraiser comes in and says, Oh, Phil, that building's only worth 300,000. Are you going to feel comfortable? If, if we need it for 50? Or 400? Like, no, man, my appraiser said, 300, I'm not going I'm not going up 100,000 To meet in the middle. And my appraiser said 500, and I'm saying I'm not going to lose $100,000 in value. So there's like that first issue, right, and I see big discrepancies, right? I've had a building, I've had two buildings that have literally appraised for like, 55% of the listing price. And so it just, it depends on the the situation in that one wears was one of the buildings that the appraiser used was a building that was sold in distress at auction, because it had a bunch of foundation issues. But the appraiser didn't look into it. And so he used it, and the building was like 30% of the value of the building we were looking at. So you just there's too many risks involved in that. So So there's the first part, right? And then you have your cost of the appraisal, which is gonna be about $2,000. And now each of you guys have to figure out what due diligence do you need to get done, to make sure that when you close, you've covered yourself, right, you've done some cya. So you have to find an inspector to go through and do the inspections. But you got to find somebody that knows how to do Commercial Real Estate Inspections, because it's different than residential. Right? You've got to get a survey done in what survey do you actually need there, you know, you may not be able to get away with a state sound state survey or a boundary survey, you may have to get an Ulta survey, those can range anywhere between 2,500 and 4,000 dollars. But you don't want to pay for it unless you need to do it. Right. Environmental is another one, which is kind of a weird one. Most of the time, banks won't ask for it. But if there's an environmental issue on that property, and you didn't get an environmental survey, any owner of that property, previous or current, whether or not they were liable for the contamination, when it happened, is liable for the cleanup. And that's a federal government problem. And they're going to come after you and you're going to pay for it. So how do you protect yourself? Yeah, you're not going to win with the government. Right? So So, how do you protect yourself from that you get an environmental phase one, right. Title policies, you know, not not just finding the right title company to do it that knows how to do commercial real estate. But what title policy exceptions should you have? So there's so many different things to it that your attorneys most likely not really going to try to give you the advice because legally, they don't want to be liable for it?
Phil Cole 8:19
Well, I know the other one, too, is is is when it comes to whether where you're building or if you're buying that and you want to maybe add on or you want to do a facelift to it is are you going into a historic? Are you buying a building that's in a historic area, because I had a doctor that did that, once again, always said, I can handle the real estate with my lawyer, you know, and was lucky, I guess, if you want to say for most of them, and I think that's the problem, right? When you get when you have one or two that have gone fine in your there's no problems, then you feel then you sit there and feel like why should I get a real estate guy, but in this situation, it probably made up for all the ot her 16 practices that he bought, because he bought he bought a building wanted to totally renovate and add on reconstruct the whole thing to take it from a 10 OP to a 20 OP office but didn't realize that he bought a building that is in the historic district of this town. And so when he wanted to re roof it and add on and all this other stuff now we had to put on this specific wood slated shingles or whatever it was that he had to do. And they ended up being just for the just for the roof alone and ended up being an extra $400,000 in building materials because it had to have the this this special shingle that was was done. And not only that, but once again, like you said commercial inspection, went in looked at it himself was fine and found out that there's asbestos in there so they aren't now there. Another, you know, when he wanted to expensive clean to add on the cost I think was like an extra $125,000 To have this special company come in to do this asbestos removal so that he could add on. So it was all said and done this real estate basically cost him I think he said at one time, like three quarters of a million dollars extra to do what he wanted to do, just because he didn't have anybody I mean, he thought he couldn't do it himself. So yeah, you're
Chris Webb 10:30
absolutely right as you want to, because you want to save some commission on it. The other one, the other one that, that doctors need to be careful because I see this a lot is you want to get creative with your space. And so you move a break room either downstairs or upstairs, if you have a second floor, right and you own the whole building. So you want to you want to maximize your space for dentistry, right, so you're going to add another OP, you're going to add another office, you're going to put in a bigger lab. And so you move the break room down, but you don't think about ADA compliance, and you may have gotten away from it. Right? If you did it before, you didn't pull a permit. But at some point, you know, when you go to sell the building, and someone's buying a building, if the use is staying in place, a lot of townships not all of them, but allowed a lot of townships will allow that variance to stay in place because the use is not changing. But once you pull a permit to update that space, yeah, they're going to require you to bring it up to code, which means that either you need to offer the same you know, those same features, whether it's an oven, a fridge, a microwave, whatever, you know, on the main floor as you do those other levels unless you put in an elevator, and now you're talking $150,000 for an elevator. So there's things you just need to be cognizant of.
Phil Cole 11:48
Yeah, I do think that there's another big reason, when it comes to this, too, is making sure that you're getting a healthcare commercial real estate agent versus just a commercial real estate agent, because there is a lot more that goes into health care. And especially if you got somebody that wants to add on, or make an expansion, change something in there. There's a lot of things that I think regular commercial real estate agents don't aren't aware of some of the rules, some of the things that are going to be required when it comes to a dental practice. And so it's missed, you know, because you're not paying attention to that. Med gas is one right, just the permitting of that knowing the different things that go the Fallen touch or fall in line with that is something that a normal commercial real estate agent would not know, it's no different than in all of our stuff that we do, right? Dental, dental specific, attorney and dental specific CPA CPAs don't know, a lot of times if they've never done dental don't know some of the intricacies of the tax laws that dental has that a normal business wouldn't get away with. So I think the same thing applies when it comes to the real estate either. Or, also. So I guess the other question I have is, is, does someone really does a does a buyer really lose out? If they do a lease? With an option to buy versus versus owning? Or what's your what's your take on that?
Chris Webb 13:31
Yeah, so there's one other thing kind of to go along with what you're talking about with being like healthcare real estate specific or dental real estate specific is understanding the value of build out like a valuation of a dental office is going to be significantly different than that of an office building, because of all the build up that goes in and knowing what the value of that is. So you know, values usually have a dental office are going to be higher, right? So can it cause it can cost both buyer and seller pretty significantly when you're looking at doing a lease with an option to buy. So there's a couple of things with it is one, you have to figure out what is the market rate for a dental office to lease so that the buyer is paying a fair rent, but the seller is also collecting a fair rent. So in one deal that that you and I did together recently, the seller didn't want to pay commission on the real estate. He wanted to do it on his own. And so he had a price that he wanted for a lease. He asked me my opinion of it. I said look, I'm not gonna dive into it too much because you don't want to hire me for it. But yes, that's that's a fair market rate. And so he brought it to the buyer, the buyer shirt, the buyer shared it with his accountant and his lender. Both the accountant and the lender went back to the seller and said, Hey, that's way too high. We need to lower this price. So they lowered it $1,500 A month is But they lowered it because they said all with the practice won't cashflow which was garbage, right? It's too high for dental real estate, nobody's paying that amount. And the seller because he didn't want to hire somebody didn't have any protection and said, Oh, okay, well, you're the accountant, you're the lender, you're going to be experts, you're going to know and went along with it. So the cost of it, if you look at it is at the very least $18,000 a year in income, he just lost, because he didn't want to pay a commission on having me help. So $18,000 a year adds up real quick. And that's without factoring in any annual increases in rent. So you know that that deal was to be a lease for three years, and then he was going to sell him the building? Well, now, you know, for the for the buyer, that's great for the seller, you just lost $54,000. And now you've got to sell it, right now you've got to sell the building after you've just lost all that income. And you're not going to make up for it that way. Right. The other thing with with doing like, at least one option to buy that can be dangerous for either party is you have to have a set price ahead of time. So when you enter in that lease, you gotta have a set purchase price ahead of time, that's what an option to buy is. And it's going to protect both parties, because now you know what you're getting into, and you agree on it right away, rather than, you know, saying, hey, what's the market gonna look like in three years or five years? When you're saying it's okay for me to buy? Let's try to figure it out, then? Well, you go back to that appraisal appraisal situation, right, trying to figure out the value of it. But you've just paid rent for three years or five years? So are you really going to come up for that? 300,000 now, so you gotta you gotta have a price setup up front. And so that's where having someone that knows it can get you a fair market rate for lease, and also a fair market price for the real estate? Do you have that price specified ahead of time? And do that? It's, it's gonna save you both a headache and a bunch of money?
Phil Cole 16:57
Yeah, I think that's probably one of the biggest mistakes is is playing the, I would say, the gambling game of thinking that, you know, what's the market going to be in three years? Right now? I mean, if you were to look at the market, I mean, in three years, who knows? I mean, it? I mean, if interest rates keep going up? I mean, you know, it, could there be a crash? I don't know. I don't like using those those, you know, scare tactics and stuff like that. But obviously, to own a building right now is more expensive than owning a building in 2019. When you were getting, you know, 3%?
Chris Webb 17:36
Well, even even last year, right? You know, even over last year,
Phil Cole 17:39
the interest rate was lower. But, I mean, it's, it's a major difference. So that's the question is, is, you know, do you want to play that game all the time. I think the other thing too, that, you know, sent you I know what you're talking leases there, too, and an option to buy and own too. But I think to go back to the our first kind of question and with this, another thing that I would say that, you know, I see too many times, is where doctors once again, concentrate on the building. Maybe when I say that's the older doctors, right, that have maybe stayed too long. Their practice isn't is valued as they know, their practice isn't valued very much. So they want to make it up on the real estate because they're in a really hot part of town or something like that. I think more than anything, this isn't maybe just necessarily real estate related. But once again, it's kind of funny, because we've had this situation, right, where they get other real estate companies to come in, and they've they've overpriced this building. And the and then the practice, what people don't understand, though, is is, is it has the practice and the building has to have debt services paid. I mean, you can't, it doesn't matter if the building's worth a million dollars, and the practice is worth 300,000. If the debt services can only afford a $300,000 building, then that's what you're going to have to sell that building for. And you know, you know, we've done that with a doctor where we actually got to banks, to write letters to them and stuff and say we this is an n at this price. This is an unfunded bubble practice. But yet for some reason, I would say that's another mistake that we run across with sellers all the time is is is let's not raise the value of the practice. Let's not get the cash flow in the practice. Instead, I'll make up for it by the thing with this, you know, high price building, it does not it does not carry the weight then instead of taking that practice and maybe taking the value from a 300,000 to a $400,000 practice you You know, now you can get the higher higher value of your practice, but you also get the higher value of your building to buildings do not real estate does not dictate the sale of a practice this cash flow of a practice dictates both the practice and the in the real estate. Right?
Chris Webb 20:16
Yeah, let me let me throw two things in there, though. So okay, so one, this is where, selfishly, I'll put in a plug for KLAS, the fact that we have transitions in real estate, we understand the real estate aspect of it, right, and we want to help you get a fair market value that neither side is getting taken advantage of. But we also are going to look at the practice and we're going to know whether or not it's going to cashflow right, the lease rate or the sale price of the of the building has to be able to cash flow within the practice. Otherwise, like you said, like, Okay, I'm gonna buy this building for a million dollars. And oh, by the way, the debt service is going to be all of the the adjusted income left in the practice. So now working in this practice for free, so that I can pay for the building, like I just, it doesn't make sense, right. And the other thing is, like you were saying about, you know, gambling and taking that risk on what's the value of the real estate going to be in three years or five years. And, and we don't want to play Nostradamus and try to throw out a prediction of what it's going to look like in three or five years here. But I am willing to take a look back during COVID. And I can't tell you how many times you know, during your like just before COVID. And then after COVID, everybody just assumed that, you know, the commercial real estate market was gonna boom with the residential market. And it didn't, it stayed pretty flat and consistent. And then everybody assumed that when everything shut down, that spaces and buildings were going to open up like crazy, and commercial real estate was going to be like a fire sale. And that never happened either. And so you just you can't do those predictions. And a lot of people like to play that game. But it is it's it's like the stock market. It's it's gambling, you just you don't know, which is why you want to have something set in stone ahead of time. So that you're you're not hoping and praying that the value goes up and you can make your retirement on your building.
Phil Cole 22:09
Yeah, no, absolutely. So we have quite a few different stories that we could we can throw in there. At times. Some scary ones. Yeah. Yeah, scary ones. And so another, I guess the important thing is, is, you know, what support can you offer to someone, when it comes to, we have plenty of dentists out there that have buildings that have multiple tenants in there. And so someone that wants to sell their practice, but they have tenants in the building? What kinds of things can you offer to support the buyer to make that passive income when it comes to purchasing their practice with multiple tenants
Chris Webb 23:01
will really buyer and buyer and seller, right buyer and seller in that situation, and it is it is a really cool, diversified way to have passive income is owning commercial real estate, right? As investment, real estate having other tenants in there that are paying money in, in, in at worst case scenario, they're helping you pay for the debt service of the building to own it and building equity for you. And best case scenario, not only are they doing that, but they're also giving you the opportunity to make money, right. So you can actually have an income coming in on that building, you know, even with debt service, or when the debt service is paid off. So it is a really cool situation to have other tenants in that building to help you. But again, knowing what the market is, and setting up leases that are properly done is a huge, it's a huge deal. It's much bigger than what everybody thinks. And, you know, your Uncle Joe, or your Aunt Sally that does you know, bankruptcy law should not be setting up your leases for you with your tenants. So I'll give you kind of kind of a horror story that that hasn't seen its final, its final conclusion yet. But a doctor that I've recently talked to owns a really nice building in a really nice area of town. He's got a handful of tenants in there, and he's making somewhere between 40 and $60,000 a year in income on his building wall covering his debt service, which is awesome. The building should be worth somewhere between 1.5 and $1.7 million dollars based on the square footage, the location, the you know, the newness of the building, you know some of its, you know, unique layouts and things like that, so should carry some really good value. The problem is his tourney, which is really weird. out of out of the five or six leases that are in that building, there are four different setups for leases. So what what expenses are covered within the lease, what expenses are passed on to the, to the associate different leases all together like, like they was almost like they pulled them off online. And so there's no consistency across the board. So the thing you want to think about when you're when you're talking about investment, real estate or real estate with multiple tenants is you've got to think noi net operating income. Right? So to protect you and to protect your family, because that's the benefit of owning it right is it's also helping for retirement and for family, for security. But that net operating income is how much money is actually coming in and is profit for you. At the end of the day after debt service after maintenance after utilities, you know, all of that stuff, what money is actually yours is income. And that's what any investor is going to use to calculate the value of a building. Right. So when you set up those different leases, now you're making it more difficult to calculate what that net operating income is. And so it's going to be the messier it is and the harder it is, the lower that price drops to an investor looking at it. So in this particular case, said that buildings should be between 1.5 and 1.7 million pretty easily. The way that they have the leases set up there, they're low. They're a modified gross, well, he's got one triple net, and then the rest of them are modified gross, he covers most of the expenses in his one triple net lease, which is basically set up where you pay a rent amount, and then you pay the net, building insurance, property maintenance, and, and taxes, property taxes, and just your proportionate share, right. So you're not paying for all of it for the building owner, you're paying your share of the building. But even for the one where he's got the triple net lease setup, he's not collecting it, he's paying it out of pocket. So the net operating income on that building puts the value at around $600,000. So he's got this building set up where it should be worth almost a million dollars more than what its actual value is. So if he sells it to another dentist who sees the value and is like, hey, I want to buy the building, I'm going to do it, you know, maybe he can get his price for it. The problem is, where if he sells the building to a dentist that doesn't want to buy it, then he's you've either got to hold on to it and collect rent is as long as he wants to own that building. But at some point when he wants to sell it, he's going to have to find an investor that's going to buy it as investment, real estate. And he's never going to recapture that money unless you restructures those leases. So that's where you want to have somebody look at it. So I can you know, like, we can come in and say, Hey, Doc, I see that you want to offer this rent, or this lease to your tenant. But here's what it's doing to the value of your building, it's killing you, you got to adjust this and fix this. We don't have to rake your tenant over the coals, but we got to protect you. And I'm saying is
Phil Cole 28:25
is once you do that, I mean, once you set that lease, like he did, the the problem is in this situation is if that lease is still has, you know, five, six years on it, or you know, in this case, three years, I mean, you you don't necessarily want to buy into something that you know is that you already are going to have to go in and raise the price substantially no less, you know, but in the situation that you're talking about, you know, he most likely was making money. So he was okay with that. Right? Yeah, I'm still making money off the building. But the problem is, is you looked at the now you didn't look at the future. And the future basically has screwed up. Because, you know, now someone that's going to buy that building definitely is going to want to make sure there's tenants in there, right. And banks are going to require that right. Like,
Chris Webb 29:20
the short leases kill you to those short leases. killya. Right. Yeah. So if you're, if you're offering somebody a three year lease, you know, if something were to happen to you, again, we're talking like worst case scenario. I know, I sound like an insurance agent on this one. But like, if something happens to you in your family's got to sell the practice, and whoever's buying the practice does not want to buy the building, but you want to offload the building because you don't want to carry it anymore. Right. Those short term leases also killed the value of it because now there's an inherited risk for the buyer that in three years that tenant leaves and now even though they weren't paying enough to cover the debt service, now you've got nothing coming in So the too many things to think about, where just you and Uncle Joe shouldn't be setting it up.
Phil Cole 30:06
Yeah. And I think, I think too many times, we run into the situation where the doctors, you know, want to save once again, like you said, on the Commission's and stuff, and they can just have their their lawyer, you know, write it up or something on that order. But the problem is, is they don't understand how much they're missing out on in little things that are missed down the road. So I mean, to this in this situation, but we've have other ones, right, where, you know, just normal commercial real estate agents, we've had one where we had a disabled doctor that had to sell the had to sell the building with the practice. But the buyer just, you know, got a person that was on their side only, but was not going to do anything unless they got commissioned, and we weren't going to charge commission on this, because it's disabled doctor, we want to just make sure this thing, it was a, it was a time sensitive thing, right. So we weren't even going to charge it. And so the buyer, though, didn't, didn't think that we could represent them. And the seller at the same time goes and gets another commercial real estate agent that demands a commission. And the only way to get them, their commission was to up the rent to the buyer. He sold it to the buyer, and the buyer thinks that they got a good deal. But really what they ended up doing is that for the next three years, they're going to just continue to keep paying at an escalated rate, to make sure that that person got their commissions. So there's so many, and we could go through over and over and over again, these stories. But it's so important just to make sure that you're you know, hopefully this podcast will get people to start asking some questions to their commercial real estate agents, right. I know that when when it comes to our transitions, we believe in fair transparent transitions. And we get nailed all the time of you know, how can you be fair? It's very simple, right? It is it is very simple. As long as you're being transparent about everything, and both people want the the it to be fair want it to make sure that they're both getting something out of this. And there's not those people that are trying to overtop, it's the same thing with real estate, right? The real estate, the amount of money that people that I've seen, since I brought on the real estate division and class solutions, the amount of money that I see lost in people trying to get one up on somebody, and they're so stuck in that versus just doing it right. And may be thinking, Okay, I'm not going to, I'm going to, it's going to cost me or I'm going to lose $10,000 here to be fair, but it's 10,000. Now, in not in the situation, like you were just mentioning with this gentleman with a tenant could be a million dollars, if some if a third party came in, because they're not going to offer 1.6 at all. Yeah, and so the amount of money that could be lost on that, let's just say it's even 100,000 10,000 versus 100,000. In this situation that he thinks, you know, it only cost me 10,000 For lawyer to write it up versus your commission that would have been, you know, say 25 30,000. Okay, once again, you've saved 20, you think you save 20, but you're missing out on over 300,000, only 10 years ago, that's a lot of money that you can put investments in a lot of money for the family to live off of if something did happen to you. So yeah, like I said, I don't know how many times you can go over that, you know,
Chris Webb 33:49
now, I know we're running low on time, but a couple of numbers like real numbers to throw out. So the one I was telling you about the the loss of $18,000 a year in rental income, right? The commission on that was going to be 24,000. So after 18 months, the commission would have been covered. And now, the next 18 months before the purchase is offered, you've got another $24,000 of income that you just made on top of the commission. Right. So yeah, you know, 26,000, whatever it is, but but it's you know, so just, there's one real number. And then the other one is, you know, having somebody that knows what they're talking about that can give you a side by side analysis on whether or not the price that someone's asking for offering is going to be worthwhile. Like a quick quick story on it is I had a building I did the the evaluation on it, I gave a fair market price seller said I'm not willing to sell it for that price. This is what I need and it was like $100,000 more. And I said oh my gosh, okay, that's going to be tough. Let's look at it, talking about it with the buyer and the buyer said um, that's like My, the edge of my comfort level. So I'd ran some calculations, I said, Okay, based on how much you're going to pay in rent, in order to be able to buy this, and this is another one, like three years you can buy it, the amount of rent you're throwing away over the next three years, covers that almost that whole gap, except now you've got three years of equity paid into it. So we were able to do the analysis and look at it. And she said, Okay, you know what, that makes me feel more comfortable. And I'd rather own the building than pay rent. So then we, we made we move forward and made the purchase, even though the price was higher than what my fair market value was. It still worked for buyer and seller, and they both walked away happy, even though she paid more than what I originally said. So just having somebody that can do that and look at it is is huge. And it'll give you peace of mind, and you can move forward and both sides are happy. Yeah.
Phil Cole 35:54
Well, hey, we could do we could do this for hours. No, sorry. We'll have you back. No, there's no problem. We'll have you back. And we'll definitely do some more of this. Because like I said, I think when people see or people hear and see the real life stories, and kind of, maybe next time, do some more number crunching just to kind of see a little bit more in depth, the differences and stuff. I think that that's where, you know, we'll we can go from there. So thanks again, Chris, for being on here. And if anybody has any questions, reach out to Chris at class solutions.com For any questions that you have. If you enjoyed our show, please rate review us on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Phil cold, your host. Thanks for listening. Have a great day.
